Category: Let's talk
On the board called Pity for the Sighted, a topic came up which I had never given any consideration to:
the idea of blindness being part of one's identity, or changing that blindness into sight is changing who one is.
Personally, I haven't really ever coupled biology with identity in this way before I came on this site, and I've been blind my whole life.
I made this its own topic, because I, at least, would like to know how or why people have come to this conclusion. I don't intend to start a debate, but rather hope someone who firmly believes this would be so kind as to make a case for it, for the benefit of others who have never even considered its merits or lack thereof. Personally I've not been able to get my head around even the concept of sight or lack thereof changing who we are.
So then, when someone loses sight, according to this philosophy, are they unwittingly changed at the core somehow, in your opinion?
I hope folks who feel this way can answer with more than just 'I want it' or political type slogans, but with a reasoned response capable of at least educating someone on this perspective, someone who basically hasn't ever given it any thought at all before.
It took me coming on here to even have it considered. As I've stated in other posts, I basically don't consider biological traits, merits, deviations, disabilities or what have you, to form part of one's identity. In other words, if I go gray and, if desired, started using Just for Men, I don't think that would change my identity any. If I opted for a surgery that would render my seizure disorder, and taking of meds, a thing of the past, I don't think that would change my identity. If I acquired sight, the capacity to breathe underwater, the ability to fly or any other physical modification, I'm not sure how that would change who I am, any more than any other changes in life do. In other words, how would these types of hardware changes cause someone to cease "being themselves"? as some have postulated elsewhere.
Hoping for some non-debate, educated responses as the only reason I've posted this is I really do want to know. Even if it doesn't change my own view for myself, I will at least understand the concept of that perspective, rather than looking at it as some obscure puzzle with two unrelated elements and a bridge of some sort.
Being blind has certainly had an impact on my life. My life would certainly be different if I had always had sight, though as I haven't had sight, I can't be specific about how it would have been different. It may have been better, or it may have been worse. All I know is it would have been different.
Therefore, my identity (who I am) would also be different. I'd be a different person. I may have different interests. I may look for different things in women. My relationships may have began differently and they may have been different to my current marriage. I may not be married. I may be a different partner to who ever I was with, because of my different attitude and different intentions.
So my blindness has certainly shaped my identity, but that is not a good or bad thing. It is just a fact, which doesn't bother me and is something I rarely think about.
From what I understand of psychology, much of a person's identity stems from their experiences - that's the whole nature versus nerture debate. I won't get into that, but as someone who went blind at the age of 13, I can certainly say that it changed my way of thinking and behaving. I don't think anyone who hasn't been through a huge change like that could possibly understand the effect it can have. It's easy to think you'll stay the same until something like that actually happens. Given the age I was at, it meant that I had to change almost everything I did - all those hobbies I'd had before, for example, which relied on having vision, were suddenly lost to me, and I had to replace them with new ones. It also changed my perspective on quite a lot of things around me. That's probably the best explanation I can offer.
Post 3 that is interesting. Would've been hard enough, but being thirteen no doubt added to the challenges; a lot is changing at that time.
Obviously Post 2 is right: whatever we are in or around does change perspective and that would include sight or lack thereof.
Interested in further responses especially from those who have in other boards quite emphatically stated a change of sight = a change of who one is or reflects on current status somehow.
i'd think it would really depend on the age at wich someone lost their vision. for me for example, all i remember is being blind so it doesn't effect me. for someone who loses their vision later in life, it could change their life if the focus on wht they lost instead of wht they still have.
I'll think so, but in a way it doesn't. I mean there's blind football players, no they're not pros, but hey at least there's something that they can do while being blind and also as them being sighted. Now the no, I've been blind my whole life well atleast, until I was 2 due to childhood cancer and I think I would've been the craziest person on this earth if I was a teen that could drive in the next year or so and also I wouldn't need helping shopping and that sort of stuff so...
Hope you all understood that even though I missed a word.
being parsually blind is like having two identity in the same person. you wanting to see like a sighted person does, enjoying things in a way like those who has sight does, but yet, you can't, cause your vision is not good enough for you to have such enjoyment.
on the other hand, you can't exactly live the life like someone who's totally blind does, using feel and touch as the main sensers of all.
with the conflight of this two, i think, it does create it's own identity.
as far as will i be different either way? either being totally blind or sighted, yes, i reckon i will. cause, i won't be who i am right now, and doing things i do. like post 2 and 3 said, i might have different interest, hobbies, and my social circle might be totally different from what it is at this very stage.
First, this is an interesting topic, and I'm glad it was raised. I've often been asked if I wish I could see. The answer is that I don't know. Based on how well posts 2 and 3 stated the issues, I don't know how my values would change if I acquired sight. I mean, would my world be as sound/touch/smell oriented as it is now? Probably not. It would probably make me re-examine my values, because I'd have that other sensory modality by which to judge things and people. Another way that I express my thoughts on gaining eyesight is that it would be as traumatic for me to gain sight as it would be for someone who has had sight to loose it.
Lou
Very interesting topic and I too look forward to hearing people's views. I've also been blind all my life and while I've always recognised the points that Senior made in post 2, I've never thought about my identity changing if I regained my sight. That doesn't mean that I didn't realise that I would have different views on things but I would still be me. I suppose you might even say that I took my blindness for granted before reading this post. I have two arms, two legs and I'm blind. That sort of thing. I never really viewed myself as Eleni (or Tiffany when I used my birth name) The Blind Woman. I was just me. rat: You just sparked something in my mind. While people focus on what they've lost, I wonder if it could be the other way for those of us who might regain sight. That is, we would focus so much on all the things that we now have that we'd forget the ones that were always there.
I remember Mom speaking with someone once who told her that she knew of some people who had regained their sight and most were extremely overwhelmed by the experience. As a totally blind person, when I walk into a room, if I put one hand on a chair and one on a table, that's all I'll know about the room until I put my hand on other objects. When a sighted person walks into a room, she can see not only the table and what's on it and the chair, but the bookcase, the decorations on the walls, the light, the umbrella in the corner, and she can do it all at once! Now here's what really blows me away. If she goes to the window and looks out, and it's a really clear day, she can see for miles. To me, that doesn't make sense other than in a logical way i.e. eyes see far so you can see for miles. But I can't imagine what that would even be like. To ad a sobering note, Mom said that she heard that some of these people actually committed suicide because they were so afraid of how quickly things, like cars, moved. It was all like a blur and they couldn't properly process the information without having panic attacks.
cappuccino all I can say is wow! That is truly fascinating. I never even considered what it must be like to be caught in the middle, having enough for certain things but not for others. Lou, yet another thought-prevoking post. I would assume that, in the beginning at least, you might need to close your eyes and use the senses with which you're the most familiar. But as you learned how to use your new sense of sight, it might take over and then balance out. I've actually wondered that about values myself. I'm generally the type to say no, I won't date outside my race, dress like that, wear makeup etc. But what happens if I see someone black and totally fall in love with his skin colour, like that skimpy outfit or maybe even long dress and think that makeup looks neat? I mean, I can't say for sure without being able to use that sense. And if it's something that's really important to me, like interracial relationships, how do I deal with it if it's something that, because of my newly acquired sight, I suddenly find myself liking? Please, let's not turn this into a debate on race. I'm using that because it's a very strong change that might come about with sight, not to say anything negative about anyone.
I've known someone who grew up sighted and due to a rare condition, temporarily lost their sight, but then had surgery and gradually got it back over the course of three years. He was about my age, and when I met him he was in the middle of his blindy life, although he had just about as much sight as I did. At that point he was secretly unsure of himself, very witty, athletically built from his previous football team, and charismatic.
When I met him again the next summer and his sight was returning, he had transformed almost fully back into the stereotypical jock. He was overconfident, overbearing, more physically strong than he had been, and was prone to frat-boy style behavior.
So yes, I think a biological change such as losing or regaining one's sight can have a drastic effect on anyone. After all, if we were't blind or VI, many new realms would be open to us: Different jobs, different transport, different hobbies, different sports. Hell, different ways of cooking meals and reading books, even. How can you say that with these new avenues, your core person would not change slightly?
Every day, new experiences change us all slightly. Whether it's an annoying line at a coffee shop, a random car accident, or gaining or losing a sensory ability, humans constantly change. Adaptation is how we survive.
Personally, were I to be given fully functional site, I would be much more independent and confident of myself in new surroundings, not to mention more physically active and less computer-focused.
Last post makes a very good case. Thanks M. As I said I never had really considered any of this before. Naturally when you put it this way I totally see what you're saying: Even the fact I lost my business and for a season had to bust ass working in the blink food vendor program probably changed some aspects of me even if I don't really know. It certainly made me aware of stuff I'd never heard of before: successful blinks who can't even type, but made money with vending machines and stores OK all on the ability to manage. Kinda weird and different, being one who typically works on machines. All that to say you're right, perceptions and all that go through changes. I'd certainly do some things differently if I had sight: First off get me a motorcycle. Now there's a relatively fuel-efficient and reliable means of transport on the one end, bad-ass on the other.
Would all this really change us, or are we really that way now we just can't express it yet? Anyway cool thanks.
well said last two posters.
if i have my sight i'll wanting to first get a driving licence and have my own car. i would like to enjoy the freedom of driving, be my own driver and go wherever i want, at whatever time/whenever it pleases me. my circles of friends will change. i'll take more time in outdoor activity instead of sticking myself on the computer. i can read printed books, newspapers, watch tv/movies without much problem. my job capacity will change. i might able to work on an airplain, be a medical profession as doctor/nurse, be a designer.
same goes if i'm totally blind. i might choose to trust my feeling and touch even more, might work on my perception of the environment instead of letting my sight/instink to guide me. might have different attitude of life all together...who knows.
i guess, what i trying to say is, everyone change. either major or minor change. we do change overtime regardless of our situation. just that, if one can restore sight, the changes will be major.
no one stay in the same posission overtime. 3years, 5years down the track, when some of you look back at the posts you made here, you might have a chucle.
I totally agree about a whole world of possibilities opening to us. As a total, I think even tunnel vision would give me something. I also agree that I'd definitely spend less time on the computer and more time out and about, even if my sight wasn't good enough for driving but good enough that I could trust myself in new surroundings. But believe me, if I could drive, I'd do it in a heartbeat! Finding the type of car that I'd want would be extremely difficult in today's market because I'm very picky but yeah.
When I studied society and culture in school, I did a very detailed project based on this topic and other related issues.
I found something that most disturbed me was that the survey results showed that blind people were distinctly less interested in current affairs and politics than sighted people.
My theory is this.
the more you associate with blind people, and blind people only, the more you consider blindness as an important part of who you are. People who do these sorts of things often end up in blindness advocacy positions and so on, go to conventions for the blind and get heavily involved in those sorts of organisations.
However for those who are not heavily involved in these things, blindness and related issues are not as important. I spent very little time with blind children when I was young, and while I have blind friends, I don't have them purely because they are blind. I don't need to hang around with blind people in order to have friends, so I have them because I like them.
Identity isn't just about what you are physically, and yes, blindness means that I am different, and act differently, but that's not what identity is really about, it's just a result of a particular difference in physical make-up that I have. Identity is more about culture, language, values and so on. As much as people think that blindness can be a cultural identity, I think that belief is misplaced, simply for the fact that blind people belong to cultural groups of their own, depending on their location, religion and so on. Blind people have braille, but this isn't really a language as the deaf peoples sign language, because it's really just other languages coded into a format we can read.
The only thing that really binds us together is the fact that we have less sight than other people, and that is such a vague point that it's almost saying that white people are a cultural group, and ignoring the fact that white people includes English, celtic, French, German and nordic cultural groups.
Still, I know that there are people out there who try to isolate themselves from the sighted and so on and stick to blind communities, and perhaps therefore it could be considered a cultural identity, however it's not a strong one, and it's certainly one that I would not advise people to linger in. The important part about finding out who you are, is discovering who other people are and experiencing other things. If you restrict yourself to one group of people, for the simple reason that they can't see, you restrict your own personal groath. It's like people with blue eyes refusing to associate with people with brown ones.
When I went to a blind citizens australia convention, for the first time, I disliked how for a lot of people, there was nothing more important than blindness issues like getting more books into braille and more accessibility, being able to put on make-up and other things.
There are blind people in the world who don't even have access to books or technology they can use who have to beg for a living, and here we are worrying about how we look.
in my experience, a lot of blind people want to be as sighted as possible if that makes sense.
not only that, but there are people in the world who don't have enough to eat, access to fresh water and who are persecuted for their beliefs. All of this is more important to me, and much more worth my time.
I know a lot of blind people, and many of them do not talk about politics, current affairs and so on, they just stick to the little blind circle of technology, accessibility and so on. whereas most of the sighted people I know talk about what's in the news every day.
however it's not a cultural identity, rather, in my opinion, the evidence of a lack of one.
I call bullshit on tiffinitsa's last post. as a blind person, you can get around perfectly fine in new areas. it certainly takes being confident, and having at least relatively good travel skills. other than that, though, it isn't an issue unless you make it one.
also, I'm ashamed to see how many of you have this misconception that only blind people are on computers all the time. I can say firsthand that a sighted relative of mine spends more time on the computer than she does with her own family. it isn't only blind people, and it isn't just blind people...it's everyday people.
To SwissGriff: oddly enough, I'm just the opposite. Perhaps it's because I never truly let blindness define me. Like you, I didn't grow up with other blind children. It was only when I was 16 that I started making "blind friends", as I thought of them in the early days, and only within the last few years that I started joining any kind of blindness-related groups. Even now, I very rarely get involved in blind organisations (groups for chatting aside). I also make friends based on personality and not on whether they're blind or not. I am very heavily involved in reading about and discussing politics and current affairs, though I must admit that I need to start reading the news every day as I did in the past. I agree about identity as well. It's really a mater of how you see yourself, with whom you associate, your cultural beliefs, language, interests and attitudes towards things. If anything, I'd call blindness a subculture, even including those who, for whatever reason, isolate themselves from the sighted. There are some issues which matter a great deal to me. Most of them are not worldwide, but they certainly extend passed the blind community.
To fighter of love and life: I think I know the things of which I am capable. But okay, let's play that game. Let's assume that you're totally blind, which you very well may be. Let's also assume that you don't have a gps system or scanner with you. If I drop you off in a strange location, could you automatically get around i.e. read the street signs to know where you are, go shopping in an actual store without any sighted assistance, read the schedule of a bus or train route, cross an enormously busy street on your own, flag a cab that happened to be passing (not one that you ordered where the driver honks his horn), know exactly when it's time to cross a street without having to wait to be sure, cross while there are still cars going by, walk every time in a straight line without veering and so on? I don't think so, and if you could, please tell me how. Yes, there are sighted people who are on the computer alot. But with us, it's still alot more prevalant.
Even though I've weighed in on the topic of gaining eyesight on other boards, as I look at it it seems such a remote possibility that it's almost like science fiction. That being said, we're talking about, providing the miracle soap opera operation were to work and the brain could actually process visual info correctly, regaining a whole other sense. That is going to turn your perception of the world upside down and all other directions, so yes, there will be some major psychological changes, so your core being would be changed. Since we're speculating, let me run these things by you. I would wonder if, as a newly sighted person, my perceptions of beauty and ugliness would be changed now that I can see exactly what they are. I know some of that is cultural, but still it's worth a think or two. Oh, and how would I perceive any blind people I knew who would have decided to stay blind. Would I think lesser of them on the whole, or would I think lesser of them for not taking the miracle operation like I did.
Those questions are just the tip of the iceberg.
Some of it may be cultural, yes, but you may also develop your own unique ideas on what is beautiful and what is ugly because it's all so new to you. So someone may tell you that something is ugly but you may think it's the most beautiful thing in the world.
tiffany, it's very clear you haven't been properly educated about how you can travel successfully in new areas as a blind person. to that, my friend, I'm very sorry. sure you can't read street signs, but there are other ways of being aware of your surroundings such as listening to the environmental cues . FYI, I'm totally blind; I also have friends who are; they get up every morning, go to work, and get around town like anyone else would. what a concept!!
it's amazing to me that someone who's able-bodied has such a narrow-minded view of the world; yet, someone with an additional disability that has a little more difficulty getting around doesn't let that stop them. I'm that girl, Tiffany, so think about that.
tiff, I know many people who are blind or low vision who can travel around perfectly on there own.
I have some vision which is some help, but admitedly I can't read but that doesn't mean I stay to the areas I know best. I mean, I've travelled to several countries in europe on my own vertually unassisted, and then again the assistance I had was to find flight gates or train platforms only because I cannot usually understand the announcements. However, if someone was to tell me that the first platform on the right was number 1, and my train was on platform 18, I wouldn't need help finding it
I know blind people who can catch new trains or buses without assistance, simply by looking up on the internet and then getting directions from a friend, or the internet also and following them.
we are taught to be able to do all manner of things when we have mobility training, and I'm sorry that you're so restricted by never having learnt or your own fear of learning how and stepping out of the comfort zone.
I'm not saying that blind people can't travel independently. Yes, it can be done. But it's certainly not as easy as it is with the sighted and I was also referring to myself when I first mentioned it, not to the rest of the community. Having some vision, regardless of how small, makes a big difference when compared with someone who has never had any. Okay, you're absolutely right about looking things up on the net. But my point there was that a sighted person wouldn't have to do that. Yes, they could, in order to possibly get extra information, but it's not a necessity as it is with us bcause they can usually read the schedules that are posted at the stations etc.
They can also read maps if they can't afford gps devices.
I've never had a gps device, and my friends who I was refering to, who are totally blind for your information, don't own them either.
Hey SwissGriff,
I agree with most of what you said. I have taken some time in the past year to learn more about the 'blind' stuff if you will, sort of like what lgbt people do when they come out you could say I've come out on here as a blink. However, although it's been informative, it's only informative on certain things of course.
However not all sighted people are into politics: Some of us people in general did our turn at it when we were younger but are generally jaded, and while will do our civic duty and vote frankly are fed up and disgusted with debates. So maybe some of the blind people you encounter are like me, they just keep apprised on events but skip all the claptrap because they're just so fed up, jaded and disgusted ... some say that's an age thing, I don't know. My father since retirement has rather taken a tunnel-vision perspective and reads everything by the Right that they print off. Most of us get so embroiled into work, raising kids, doing interests and stuff, we may not be quite as well-rounded in some ways as we were when in college.
I think what is 'awkward' for some is normal for others. I've had several people unfollow me on Twitter since I joined the Coast Guard Auxiliary. Naturally I joined up because I support their efforts, especially since we have so many waterways out here and so much accidents. However people living in the desert probably think we're awkward or weird for publishing so much data on GPS, personal flotation devices, safety on marinas and the like.
Like you I don't really get the blind advocate thing, but then again I don't get the advocate thing anyway. But, once exposed to all the different problems some people face, like people on here not getting access to the tools you need, naturally I pay more attention now than I did before, simply because I didn't know.
I just think there's far too much of a rush to judgment that someone is or does a particular activity or thought process because of their visual hardware, or their response to it. By way of explanation, we were at a public event where the National Anthem was played. Everyone stood of course, And I reflexively did the traditional hand over the heart, what the military calls the 'Civilian Salute'. I didn't know that term at the time, and I'm not really a flagwaver or ra-ra-ra type but certainly a average member of a civilized society. The person with me, because she saw nobody else around us was doing that, pointed it out and said something to the effect that I must have been putting my right hand over the heart because I'm blind. My shipmates in the Coast Guard would profoundly disagree with her, I must say.
However, since I was the only one doing it, and I happen to possess defective / missing visual hardware, that must be the reason. Sort of like everyone who died in traffic accidents last week ate carrots, thus carrots cause accidents.
Ironically but not surprising, after I did the research and found it had not in fact gone out of fashion, as traditional ceremonial things typically don't, and in the process learned it was called the Civilian Salute by the military. I told her this, she had learned from a friend I'm now in the Coast Guard, so now guess what? I'm supposedly a ra-ra-ra right-wing gun toter and *of course* I would have done that because I'm all military! Right. That's why I'd never considered any military involvement till a couple months ago.
All this to say, while yes vision has a ton to do with perception, I severely question the deductive reasoning capabilities of a lot of people especially blind now that I'm on here, who claim misspelling, looking like a pig, chewing with the mouth open, I guess now it's performing a civilian salute in some circles, probably any other behavior you can think of, must by definition have to do with visual hardware. Yet I've known people who exemplify all those qualities with existing and fully functional vision. I definitely see now see how one would change.
Maybe this is callous, but if I could acquire sight in a manageable fashion, hell yes. But then again I've always operated on the axiom if I can I should, not as so-called independence like they say on here, but because it's responsible dammit and we're a civilized society not a bunch of autonomous self-absorbed islands. So if I got sight, I could easily relieve my wife of driving to the store, split shifts driving with her when we go on a long trip, wouldn't have to place a visual burden on anyone. Hell we pretty much act that way now, at least some of us. I would not only take sight, but assume it as a responsibility to learn it. Why should someone go out of their way for me, when I could readily take care of things ahead of time? That's a part of who I am I guess you could say, so I don't think that would change. But certainly how I could express that part of myself would.
To post 15, I don't watch the news every day or keep up with current events because it's depressing to me. I don't want to count how many murders are reported on tv or in the paper because it makes me sick that kids in school have to bring in current events every week or sometimes every day. During the time I was in school and I was asked to do that, I never did. I might have failed, but I wasn't purposely overloading myself on death and destruction, which I think probably made me a better person.
My grandmom, who lives with my parents and I, has what I would consider an unhealthy obsession with things like that. You can't have a conversation with her without her bringing up how many murders there are, which launches her into racist stereotypes and so on. Because of the negativity the media feeds on, it's making people like her look to 2012 with hope instead of fear. I don't want to become like that, so I distance myself from it. It's not that I don't care that this stuff goes on, it's just I'd rather not watch it every day and become desensitized to it, because it would be like overcoming a phobia. After it was done depressing and scaring me, maybe I wouldn't care at all.
that wasn't what I said at all. I know some sighted people who aren't interested, but I know more who are. as for blind people, I know maybe 1 or 2 interested in politics here in australia and the rest are not, only when it effects them and their little world.
as an example, the 10 blind people I surveyed all show up as left wing on the political compass test, whereas the sighted are spread all over the place, but more are economically right wing. of the people I surveyed, no blind ones turned up economically right wing.
I've put my hand over my heart when hearing the Hellenic national anthem and it had absolutely nothing to do with my blindness and neither does the fact that I always stand when I hear it. Oh man, some people! I actually take breaks from the news for exactly that reason, because overload can tend to mess with the brain. But I think it's important that I get back to it because I don't want to miss anything either... Slow and steady I guess. I wish I could join the Hellenic military... *sigh* Well, at least I could try to keep up with what they're doing.
I know that wasn't necessarily what you said, but I'm saying it might be smart if they distance themselves from it. Too much of anything isn't good, and I agree they should expand their topics of conversation. Hell, I know a lot of blind people like that. But if they're so sheltered that they only feel safe among other blind people, then I think it's best they don't subject themselves to the evils of the world. Of course, it depends on their age and how long they've been blind, but I've gone off topic enough with this.
As someone who was born blind, I don't know anything else. Now, I can bet that if I had sight things would be different. Hell, that may be the reason I haven't been kicked out of the home by now.
I agree with margorp's last post. Tiffany, sure some things would be different if we had sight, but you said yourself that it isn't easy...so just deal with it. why let it stop you from living life to the fullest?
On the travel thing don't mean to brag, but I'm pretty good in fact very good so all that there about how different it would be is...well...let's say it depends on the person.
One thing I find disturbing on here is that many seem to postulate how others ought to function 'as blind people'. Sorry but if someone is sheltered or whatever, be they blind, religious, a wingnut conspiracy theorist, or whatever, that's quite entirely their affair. That in combination with the poor deductive reasoning 'skills', I guess some would call it, to me seems like a rather toxic and chemically unstable scenario.
i guess, in general, there're some blind people out there unfortunately living in their own little world. making friends with only blind people, going places only confortable to them.
i never own a gps system, or never good in reading maps, but i've travel by myself quite a lot both in my own country, and in australia itself. i'm blind, but i have two feet, i've mouth to ask for direction when i'm lost, and when usually you reach out to ask for help, people will be only too willing to help.
it is all, excuse my words, but, an excuse for blind people itself not to explore, and not to get out of their own confort zone. maybe because they are too protected by the circumstances, however, all because "i'm blind therefore i can't, or, too hard for me, or, i can't read a map/using a gps" just an excuse.
i must admit, i don't have many blind friends in my life. not because i want to excluse myself from the blind community, but, i don't feel there's a need to involve myself heavily in the community. i can be who i am, having sighted friends, do things together like a sighted people. and to be honest, i never feel that i'm the strange one. you'll learn to do the thing in sighted kind of way.
look, I dislike sheltered behaviour no matter who is living it. It's not good in this day and age because sheltering doesn't allow people to grow up and form their own opinions based on experience.
noone should live like that if they want to be tolerant and accepting human beings in society.
Well, I feel bad for the sheltered people, but I agree with the not acting strange and that sort of stuff. I knew a girl at camp who has a damn cane, but can't use the thing to save her life. She still walk with her hands out feeling for stuff, be walking your direction and runs smack dab in to you and just can't fend for herself. Sheltered people make me upset because some people may look at me and I may be the first blind person ever that they've ever met. As for me I'm pretty good very independent and can look professional in public or shal I say look like a person...
So the sheltered people that don't know a damn thing running around and grabbing and that sort of stuff just make us look bad and just for once it's just not good. I hate judging and making people feel bad, but if your one of those people pqn me or talk to me like you know what your doing as a independent blind person or we'll have problems.
And sorry for the grammar mess up and that sort of stuffs, I'm writing very lazy on this board...
I may be painting with a broad brushstroke here, but it seems that some of us are saying that the "well-adjusted blind person" is one who travels without difficulty, and is very confident in his/her abilities, and doesn't let blindness stop him/her.I don't think it is that simple for all of us. I'm probably somewhat older than many posting here, but I've noticed my mobility skills diminishing somewhat. Does that make me less well-adjusted than someone else? I don't think so. For one thing, I don't really know what "well-adjusted" means. *smile*.
Lou
I totally agree with post 33. What posts 34 through 36 are basicly implying is that is that all blind people should be able to do the same things as each other. Calling a lack of independence an excuse is an unfair judgement based on ones own capabilities. Not everybody is capable of doing the same things as anyone else. It's like saying that all blind people should be musically inclined, or all blind people should be good with technology, because those are so stereotypical of blind people, so every blind person should be able to go anywhere, any time, without assistance, simply based on the fact that a few of them can. Everybody is different.
to post 37/38, nope, the indicators of well travelers do not meaning to say we are well adjust to the blindness. just means, we are, perhaps more willing to explore and be more advanture. of course, there're some people who do very well by just staying at home and do stuff. but i don't think, those people using 'blindness' as a hindrence for them to be success. similarly, people who sit at home and complain about things, not willing to explore because they are 'blind' is those who giving themselves excuses, not willing to step out from their confort zone. trust me, the first step is the hardest of all steps.
What Lou is saying makes sense and the older you all get, the more you'll realize all the efforts you made at trying to be something for someone else's educational benefit are about as successful as explaining quadratic equations to a horse. My apologies to horse people who think horses are smart.
I've known people my whole life who have seen me in various states and doing various things, and still think a blind person is helpless. Maybe they remember some slip I made at age six or just erroneously attribute visual hardware or lack thereof to a weakness of mine.
Sorry kiddos, you can't really change what others think. Just keep your head down, work a lick, raise the kids, do the best you can and leave it at that.
But Lou your point about getting older and mobility is interesting, perhaps I'm in for something down the road I don't know. I'm 39, and even now, while I can still get around fine, I'd have to say the range of my sonar ability or as is now called echo location seems to be more nearsighted if you will. Still works fine and not enough to impede yet but lakcs the definition and distance it used to have. Oh well, when hardware fails, software is king.
well that's the same for sighted people too...
the thing is, is that MissDevious is correct in what she says. I especially am annoyed when blind people cannot be independent due to their own lack of the ability because they are too scared, couldn't be bothered or think that they can't. If you don't want to be independent, that's fine, that's your right, but just like people who don't vote really don't have any right to complain about the government, they do not have the right to complain about not being able to do things for themselves such as travelling, because of the simple fact that it is possible for them to learn. if they have tried to learn and they are still unable, that's still a different story, but if you are able to learn, and you don't, in my opinion you do not have the right to use your blindness as the reason for why you can't do things. It's not your blindness, it's your own unwillingness to try.
speaking for myself here, I'm not implying that every blind person is the same. that'd be silly; what I am saying, though, is that nothing annoys me more than people who're unwilling to try to do things.
I completely agree. I'm not going to go pulling people out of their life style. If they choose to live in their own little world, then so be it. If your mobility skills aren't that great, that's not saying you're less of a person. What matters is that you try to do something with it. Do you want to rely on other people to walk/drive you everywhere, therefore basically working on their schedule, or would you like to try to work on your own schedule, with your own abilities? Sure, we all have our own limitations, but I really can't see any reason why any blind person can't live a fulfilling and productive life. Like I said, if you have people who are willing to wait on you hand and foot, and you're okay with this, well, to each their own, but personally, I'd rather do things on my own terms, and step outside my comfort zone a bit whenever necessary. Tiffanitsa, you said yourself in another topic that being scared isn't any excuse not to try new things, so why not try it? We all make fools of ourselves once in awhile. Are you going to let that stop you, or are you willing to laugh it off and try again tomorrow? I'm not going to bash those who would take the opportunity to gain sight. That's definitely an individual choice, and I will say that I'm sure there would be many conveniences, but there are alternate methods of doing things, and it's really about figuring out which of those methods work best for you. There were times, as a young child, I used to imagine ways of breaking my cane, avoiding mobility lessons, and many such things because it was more difficult than just having someone help me, but now that I'm older, I could write a "thank you" letter to all those who pushed me to step outside my boundries.
I think it it is all well an good as individuals to do the best one can, put the best foot forward, and the like. But if you're offended or put off by others who won't try, unless they're on your same work team or something, you're only screwing yourself. Speaking of not acting like a child or whatever the fuzzy word for that shit on here is, if you're over 25 and still bugged by what others do or petrified over what others think of you / blindness, you're the one with the age / maturity problem.
I'm already seeing progress in this area with a fifteen-year-old daughter: when they're in junior high they think they have to preen every fifteen seconds and won't cross a parking lot without checking themselves first for fear someone might see them a bit out of sorts. And oh so concerned about how another's appearance will make them look.
If you're in junior high, that's ok. Tolerable if in high school, maybe passable if in college though by then someone's paying for your education so hopefully you're starting to evolve. I say 25 because the latest thing they say is the brain isn't fully developed till you're 25, I'm no social service / psych major / Sigmund Freud but hey, I just have to go look on Facebook and see that looks about right.
So if you're under 25 and all this who's-blind-and-not-measuring-up stuff is still your game, you've got time. But if you're over 25 may want to rethink.
As to blind association only: That's because of the Internet. I associate on the net with groups I'm interested because I can pick. Before there was a web, blinks couldn't do this: there just aren't that many blind people per square mile. So then, "the blind," if you will, is just like any other small group. I'm on a pipe smokers forum and if you saw us on there you'd think all we did was associate with other pipe smokers. Because of the Net, we can have concentrated forums for this, but with tobacco in general and pipes in particular going out of general fashion / frowned upon by the new breed of 1920s-style prohibition people, there aren't that many pipe smokers per square mile. So, just like on here, people go there to get info they could not otherwise get elsewhere.
So i highly doubt the isolationist separatist blind phenomenon, as some of you claim exists. Probably a very few, but considering geography / insanely small population of blind people, your portrayal of isolationist separatist blind people made me laugh.
Anyway enough rambling from me, though I've gotten an education on here in general, and from this board in particular, I couldn't possibly acquire elsewhere in my immediate sphere.
So I thank you all for that.
Well, if you're one of those people who say you don't care what people think about you, and yes, I am one of those people, then you should probably consider that the same is true for others, regarding your thoughts of them, so to try and force them to change is really pointless. At the same time, though, the boards are all about posting your opinion, and if I don't agree with what somebody says, I'm going to mention that. What they choose to do with it from there is up to them.
exactly, Jess. in expressing my opinion, I'm simply sharing my views. I'm not doing any more than that; if people interpret otherwise, that's their problem. if people can't handle what I have to say, they don't have to read it.
LeoGuardian, if you seriously think everyone under 25 as well as over 25 is immature, you have some major growing up to do yourself. age is just a number; it's how the person carries themselves that truly reflects their maturity.
I neither stated outright nor implied that everyone under 25 and over 25 was immature. That's a stretch even for you, though it seems you often overstate things for the purpose of making a point. Offended? Nah. Informed perhaps, educated sometimes amused. Naturally not taken with my own words distorted but that would be true of any and all of us. Even youwith whom I've sympathized when others have distorted what you yourself said to make their own point. Making a point is just that I guess: neither clarity nor a solution just a point.
Some of you have been blind all your lives, yet you seem unable or unwilling to realise or accept that blind people, for a number of reasons and due to a number of factors, vary in ability. Some are able to travel more independently than others. Some are able to live more independently than others. Some are able to integrate into mainstream society better than others. Some are able to cut their own food - others can't. Some have phones that talk so they can send and receive texts - others don't.
Blind people aren't worse than other blind people if they are less or unable to do what the other blind people can do. In the context of this discussion, the best blind people are those who understand that some people are less able than others, and who don't judge people negatively for being less able to do certain things.
That should settle the disagreement, but it probably won't.
no, of course it doesn't. I am perfectly able to cut up my own food even with my eyes closed. I can even now use chopsticks because my fiance taught me how to do it.
the point I am making is that being blind is not the reason for a persons inability to say, cut food. they cannot cut up their food because they are blind. they are unable to cut their food because noone has taught them how to do it, or because they have been taught how and simply do not wish to, so they hide behind their blindness to get other people to do it for them.
this would be totally unacceptible to sighted people, and noone would cut up the food of a sighted person who was over a certain age, so it shouldn't be acceptable to blind people either. it shouldn't be acceptable to people period. blindness also certainly shouldn't be used as an excuse either. but it's far more easy to say, 'it's too difficult for me to cut up my food because I'm blind or can't see what i'm doing' than to say 'I couldn't be bothered learning' or 'it's easier for me to let you do things for me rather than me being independent'. but these statements are closest to the truth, and yes, it does bother me and not so much because I get offers to do all kinds of things that I don't need, but because sighted people are also labouring under the opinion that blind people actually need help with this because they are blind, and that's more than a little deceptive.
yes, we do need help sometimes. I do not deny that.
we can't read signs, it might be difficult for some of us to shop if price is important and the local store does not do online shopping, and some of us need help choosing clothes for important occasions so we don't look stupid. but this is different, these are things that we are unable to actually do for ourselves, and I appreciate my sighted friends assisting me in these matters.
but just like aboriginal people don't want to be seen as junkies or alcoholics, just like many black or mexican people do not wish to be seen as lazy, I do not want blind people to be seen as totally dependent on the sighted.
everyone have their prefer life style that is true. everyone also have the choice to choose what they one in life. in the population as in hold, some choose to be dependend, rely or others, while some choose to be independent, and be the one who's reliablwe. whatever you choose, as long as you confortable with it thats fine. but what gets to my nerve is there are some people, complaining, or simply using "i'm blind" as an excuse for them to succeed, or to step out from their confort zone.
we do need to know our limitation as a blind person, but doesn't mean that, we should always put our disability first hand, and blocking all the way to be better, to be succeed, and be success.
I can identify with post 3.
Vision loss does change a person, I know this from firsthand experience.
Just think, you grow up being influenced by what you observe your father or mother doing, they set an example for you of how a man or a woman is supposed to be, the image they implant in your brain will make you want to mold yourself into whatever qualities you find good or right.
So if you’re sighted, and then one day you suddenly find yourself blind, incapable of living up to those social roles your parents inculcated in your brain, you will understand that some sacrifices will have to be made, some adjustments to handle daily tasks will need to be learned.
You will find yourself pushed to forgo many of those values you held before experiencing blindness. Because you can no longer see yourself driving your children to the park or beach, or you can no longer see yourself baking your children nice decorated cakes for their birthdays . We all have what I think are called cultural archetypes, some men want to be expert handymen fixing things that break around the house, playing contact sports with their children, being leaders, going hunting or whatever, some women want to be soccer moms. Of course not all sighted men and women, fathers and mothers, are as active or capable of doing what was said above, but what I am trying to get at is vision loss does change a person’s outlook. The pressure to conform to these roles is still there even after blindness sets in.
So you can imagine the frustration.
It’s like a part of you dies, and a new one is born.
Your attitude might not change. Your goals might not change.
There’s a sense of defeat, but it takes hard work to rebuild your life.
If you lose interest in the visible world, your memory will be effected. The longer you go without seeing trees, seeing faces, buildings, the faster these mental images will disintegrate. You need to force yourself to remember, at least that’s how it’s been in my experience.
This alone should tell you how drastically a person is changed by vision loss.
I can’t really say much about people who have been blind from birth.
I guess we all sense that our freedom is limited and try as much as we can to be as independent as possible, each of us having different values and goals which give purpose to our lives.
Maybe having something to work toward is all that really matters, not what we do or how we do it, but just that we do something personally meaningful.
Nobody will ever be the perfect blind person. It's great if you strive to be the best, but I think in the end you'll only find yourself blinded by your own shadow.
It's not discouragement.
I wish to thank all of those who actually understand that people have different abilities and that most are not using blindness as an excuse. Senior, your post in 48 was brilliant. I refuse to be judged as less of whatever just because my mobility skills aren't good. Has anyone ever asked me about my training? Let's see. I had several instructors. One was busy looking at men instead of teaching me. Another, when just starting out with me, let me walk into a parking lot. The cars were parked but she didn't say where she was and I didn't know where I was and thought that a car was going to hit me. I was traughmatised. I then didn't have mobility for quite a long time. When I did again, it was very spurratic because the instructor had a heavy case load and I tended to come down with colds and viruses more often at that time than I do now. I went to Pennsylvania and met one of the best instructors I'd ever had in my life. I came back feeling alot more confident in myself. I then went to the Diamond Spring Lodge where, unbelievably, I met another instructor on par with the one from PA. She even understood echo location and was willing to help me hone my skills in it as I learned how to use my cane. But going there is expensive and now they've cut back on the program. She doesn't work for the Commission and I can't afford to hire her on my own or I would.
The streets in my town are a mess. Some have tree roots coming up on the sidewalk and most have cracks. Most aren't busy though some are and I wouldn't try crossing them on my own. Almost all of the stores, restaurants and other places of interest in the town are on the main street, which is one of those dangerous ones or require crossing such a street if they're not on one.
Since I can't find a decent instructor, that means that I can't be trained. While I admit that I can probably learn a route to a given place, I will also say that it would take a major reorganisation of my brain to do it, as I tend not to pay attention to small details like turns and such or remember long paths. I also have a major problem with veering and am afraid of wandering into a street or something without knowing it, especially with these stupid ramps and drop offs without any warnings. I would walk with my family but it's rare that they go anywhere on foot. Joanie and Grandma both have problems with their legs and Mom's got a heart condition so can't walk that far. If anything, my best bet is to have my boyfriend Spiros walk somewhere with me and I really should ask him to do so because I know he would be willing and able.
I'm also nervous about going somewhere completely on my own, especially if I need to ask for directions. While my town is generally a quiet and safe one, you never know what will happen, and, though some will argue this point, I think it's generally alot harder for a blind person to fight someone or to run from trouble, particularly when he/she doesn't know where he/she is going, than it is for a sighted one. So some of it is fear, some is probably laziness and some is just my current living situation. I would feel alot better if I was walking with Spiros and also had a gps so that I could eventually go places on my own.
As for cutting food, if you kindly ask someone in a restaurant to do it, while placing your order, they will most likely oblige you. Grandma can cut her own food. Yet because of her arthritis and the fact that she tends to take big bites and doesn't always chew properly (not a disability, just how she eats), Mom cuts her food many times. She's almost 80, so I hardly think that age qualifies here.
Raskolnikov, thanks for the truly insightful post. Just as you can't really explain or understand what it's like to be blind all of your life, I can't understand what it's like to have lost sight. Of course, what you say makes sense. Even though I've never seen, there are still some things that I wish that I could do. Some, like driving, are big ones, but some are really small, like seeing the faces of the people whom I love, seeing the sun rise/set, understanding colour, reading something without having to use a scanner. So in that sense, I know what you mean. The only thing I couldn't understand is the pressure to be something. Perhaps, it's because of how I was brought up. Sure, my parents had their ideas of what I should be and they taught me values and morals. But they never tried to really mould me or to control me, they never expected me to be a certain way. I was always encouraged to think for myself, to have my own experiences, to ask questions, and most of all, to form my own opinions. It never really mattered to me what people did. If I was interested in a particular group, sure, I'd try to fit in. But I never gave into peer pressure or lost myself in order to be accepted. I've never had what you call a cultural archetype, at least, nothing conscious. Perhaps, you mean something entirely different, so correct me if I'm wrong here. Just my thoughts. I love what you said about doing something personally meaningful. I think that's what having a cat will do for me. To another person, it's nothing, but to me, it means alot as do the little accomplishments that I make in life.
Rask thanks a lot. Very insightful and of course being blind from birth I would not know this. I always assumed it would be traumatic and rather like when someone dies, for a sighted person to lose their eyesight, but you and others have done a really good job of explaining it for the rest of us.
And Tiff, nice to know a mobility instructor could in fact show someone how to echo locate. I apparently got that on first install as I've never taught myself. I did drop things deliberately as a small child, so I could learn to detect where they landed by sound, so I wouldn't either lose stuff or the other natural act, have it taken before I got it. But that ain't echo location.
I've had several 'blindness' people ask how I was doing that, when I was growing up, and get all resentful when I basically couldn't tell them how. All I said at the time was it was like a bat, which is how my father had described it: that and radar.
So it's really good if you didn't get it by biology or whatever someone could in fact show you how: I can't imagine life without it.
Actually, it partly stemmed from my own abilities. I could naturally hear doorways, things in front of me and the like. She just helped me enhance those skills. At one point, I was so good that I could tell when she moved from one side to the other of me without saying a word. I also heard as we passed a tree, a mail box and a house... something like that. I get really excited when I can tell these things because since I don't often remember details, hearing the entrance to a place can help me figure out where I am.
while it's true that there are things we can't do, as parents or siblings, we can however learn to compensate for that and do different things.
So, you can't make a decorated cake, but you have the ability to make a cake with icing and/or other trimmings. you could make cookies and teach your child/sibling how to do it. I recently taught the 7 year old who llives here how to make choc-chip cookies and we had great fun and he learnt a lot.
so, you can't volunteer to help your sighted child's sporting team, but you can volunteer to help in other ways around the school. most schools will understand and try to find a role for you in which to help. you can also learn other games and teach and play them with your child. I taught that same child how to play chess, and he's getting really good. I also did some volunteering at his school as his mother worked there and asked me if I wanted to help with the school choir.
the point is, is that you can spend your life wanting to do so much and feeling sad or dissatisfied that you can't do all the things other people can do, or you can find things that you can actually do and do them and be happy that at least you have the ability to.
surprisingly, a good deal of our cultural and social make-up does not come from our parents, or at least, by many theories of development, it shouldn't. indeed, if ones family is their only source of cultural and social interaction, often the person will turn out to be less mature socially and politically than their peers and will not develop their own views, ideas and opinions.
Dreams, role models, cultural influences, these are the factors in the foundation that forms as a person develops.
If an unexpected event takes place, and it causes a shift or gap in the course of someone’s life, it’s not going to be easy to simply give up the future that he or she was aiming for. You can grow up dreaming of becoming a fireman, but if you lose the ability to obtain this goal, the pressure/motivation you once had applied on yourself will continue after vision loss. This is the pressure I was talking about. The future you once saw yourself in continues to call, but it’s like you’re between a rock and a hard place as the saying goes.
Most of the roles you dreamt of fulfilling as a sighted person will have to be tossed aside. It takes a re-examination of your values/dreams, relearning how to pursue those same goals but as a new person with a different approach. The result of vision loss can probably be described as anomic.
Like I said before, of course we only pick and choose those qualities that we consider good or right, from family members or other people, that’s actually what I meant by cultural archetypes, or models that we admire as children and young adults; being the hero, the good Samaritan, hunter, the bad guy, moralist, womanizer, the rebel and so on. We all have come in contact with people who display such characteristics.
The foundation starts at home, with your family. Then school and work, other social events and places.
From birth we’re absorbing, learning, imitating. But we reach a point where we break away from such behaviors and work toward authenticity. Perhaps individuation is more accurate.
I speak as one who was fully sighted. I’m still adapting to blindness and probably will for several years to come, because the way I absorb information is different.
So I can say this site has helped, learning how others function without the sense of sight is encouraging, and makes it possible to select ideas that can change the way I think about blindness.
I will probably always think like a sighted person.
This doesn’t mean it’s impossible for a person to adapt. Doing so is quite easy once you have the right attitude. Once you're no longer ashamed of being blind/disabled.
I don't mean that as an offense to anyone. Accepting my condition was an obstacle, and this is probably true for anyone else who's undergone something similar.
Don't let my honesty upset you.
Raskolnikov, Thanks for your insightful posts on this, as well as other subjects. Related to what you said about you still adapting to blindness, I firmly believe that the person who believes he/she "has adapted" is mistaken. As the capabilities of technology change, for example, it is easier and in some cases possible for us as people who are blind to perform tasks we could not do before. The very nature of our lives as human beings is change, and learning to work with one's disability is no exception to this statement. I often say that if I get to the point where I believe I've completely "adapted" to being blind that I hope I die very soon thereafter, because to me, that implies there's nothing else to learn.
Lou
To the last two posts: You all are making tons of sense. Rask I can't imagine what it would be like to be you, and I don't mean that condescending in the least, I simply have not had to deal with that profound loss. Makes sense to me you would always think like a sighted person.
Lou I know what you mean: Remember them big checks with raised lines you could roll into a typewriter and type on? What a pain in the ass, but at the time I thought it was great, I could write out my own checks. Yet like you said, technology continues to advance and for all the areas it may cause some trouble, the benefits are so profound I'm sometimes almost shocked. We're a long long ways from typewriters / Braille writers / the headaches of the past. And that past wasn't that long ago. With mobile computing solutions gaining in power I personally think blind people have got our toes on the edge of yet another diving board, it's gonna be another quantum leap forward in what we can do for our dependents and ourselves.
I once met somebody who refused to admit she was blind and so never used her cane. Fine, it's her life and her choice. My point is that we all have different ways of handling a situation. Now, I personally feel bad for some of them but all I can do is just let them live.
stevo good job explaing that. who we are is based on life experiences. I had sight till 6 and a half as stevo said it's a huge change. each experience we have changes us somehow even though we might not realize it.